jhkimrpg ([info]jhkimrpg) wrote,

More on Informality and ACNW

I'd like to clear some air about the previous post -- which had some good discussion in comments, but also generated rancor. First of all, I should clear up some things. It is always difficult to compare experiences. People of differing opinions often have differing experiences. Here I'd like to discuss about the larger cultural context of gaming.

I should give some context to my AmberCon NorthWest visit. I am not a fan of Zelazny's Amber novels -- nor am I a fan of Wujcik's Amber Diceless RPG. I had played in one Amber DRPG campaign in 1992, and I basically hated it. The campaign I played essentially reproduced all of the bad features I noted in the book: NPCs who vastly overpower the PCs, competition between PCs without the option of fair contests, and Sorcery broken. I had read the first Amber series shortly prior, and I liked it enough to finish it but was not especially thrilled. However, over the last year, I had heard good things from two people (first my gaming friend Madeline, then online correspondant Lee) about AmberCon NorthWest, so I decided to try it out. In part, I specifically wanted to see what the alternate culture was like.

Mark W wrote:
I haven't been to an Ambercon. I have, however, been to similar single-fandom microcons, both in and out of RPG-land.

The biggest things these events have in common is that often no-one even knows they exist unless they have already penetrated the outer layers of an insular fan culture
... There is a sort of "reverse network effect" that discourages recruitment in these kinds of mediafan communities, and I see no reason why this would be any different for gaming. I would be curious, though, to know how many of those newcomers become regular attendees - my guess is that there is a non-negligible attrition rate among people who find that the reality does not mesh with their expectations, but I doubt there's any straightforward way to know for sure.
This doesn't sound like my experience of ACNW -- but I'd welcome more comparisons to the communities which you met with. ACNW was something of a close-knit community, but it seemed to be that way through a direct network effect. That is, people who came would tend to come back bringing their friends and family. I'm not sure how many people were there -- I would guess between 100 and 150 (though some only stayed part time). Since I was only there one year, I couldn't say about the attrition rate. Perhaps Lee could say more.

As for demographics -- naturally most people were from the Northwest or Northern California. There were a number of people from England, though. Compared to mainstream gaming conventions, I saw relatively more couples and families attending. In registration, the organizers made an important point that all games should be classified as "teen friendly" or not -- something I rarely see in mainstream games. I also think that the percentage of women was greater -- I'd guess maybe 40% compared to maybe 15-20% at my local gaming conventions like ConQuest and DundraCon. What was even more notable was that there were many more games GMed by women: 30 by men, 20 by women, and 12 by both. That's much more than I've seen in either mainstream game conventions or surveys of gamers, where female GMs are generally less than 10%.

People tended to hang out together a lot outside of the games -- though this was influenced by the venue, which fairly isolated (i.e. there were only really two places to eat). Most games were Amber Diceless or a variant, but there was also Dogs in the Vineyard, Primetime Adventures, and Polaris.

As a side comment, I think there is a pretty major cultural difference between film, television, and comic fans and literary fans. I don't know much about the former -- but this felt very different than my encounters with TV or comics fans. I felt similarly from my visit to WisCon, a literary science fiction convention.

Mark W wrote:
I think that the "cultural" approach to functional play clearly provides things that formal design can't. I just don't think those things have much of anything to do with the actual experience of play, at least not in any reliable way. I think the big benefit is as a filter against agenda clashes (technical, creative, whatever) - people are strongly trained in a Right Way To Play, and those who don't find that fun either adapt or fall by the wayside. Pretty soon, the community is homogenous enough in terms of preferences that it rarely experiences overt dysfunction.
Well, I'd offhand agree that the larger context of play is probably more important for the informal approach. I'm not convinced that it requires a larger total investment in training, though. I had no problem jumping into play at either ACNW or Knutepunkt. It may require more in the way of selection -- but that would have to allow self-selection or selective recruitment, since I didn't see much "weeding out" during the cons.

I think that each side examining the other might well help. For example, I think that games based on formal design can still benefit from the cultural context of play. At the same time, an informal environment like ACNW can still benefit from formal design. Dogs in the Vineyard, Primetime Adventures, Polaris, and Star, Moon & Cross all made an appearance there. I think Polaris and Star, Moon & Cross both worked pretty well with the crowd there.
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  • 13 comments

Anonymous

November 29 2005, 22:27:35 UTC 6 years ago

Very interesting, John. It sounds as though the Ambercon world is diversifying slowly. Probably inevitable. My primary contact with Ambercons in the past has been through accounts of people's ongoing multi-year Con Games - essentially the extension of a single fictional scenario through multiple years, in which there is little turnover of players and characters. Often these were extensions of internet-enabled games.

This has big parallels in the world of "online rp" (the collaborative fiction-writing version), in which microcons and different layers of invite-only private games play a really major social role.

My understanding of the social context of ACNW specifically is probably lacking. Most of the information I have directly about the world of Amber fandom has aged a bit - I was much more interested in the mid-90s. I draw analogies to similar patterns in other fandom and they may well be somewhat infelicitous.

Re: litSF fandom - there's a real serious insider/outsider dynamic at play there, too. I live in the home of one of the most fractious SF fan communities known to man, whose major convention has fractured at least 3 times due to conflicting fan identity politics. I think SFF fandom is facing a challenge of "we need to recruit - but not THOSE PEOPLE" which has a lot of parallels to the increasing fragmentation of the RPG hobby.

Re: Polaris. I'm not surprised at all that Polaris gets a good initial response from the Amber community. I wonder how extended play would fare, though? The 'theme packed in the box' doesn't really develop in spades until you get 2 or more sessions under the belt. I think the tragic arc might trip many people's 'control of character' buttons eventually.

Mark W

[info]jhkimrpg

December 1 2005, 19:22:23 UTC 6 years ago

Re: litSF fandom - there's a real serious insider/outsider dynamic at play there, too. I live in the home of one of the most fractious SF fan communities known to man, whose major convention has fractured at least 3 times due to conflicting fan identity politics. I think SFF fandom is facing a challenge of "we need to recruit - but not THOSE PEOPLE" which has a lot of parallels to the increasing fragmentation of the RPG hobby.

Well, the RPG hobby is at least pretty fragmented. I'm not sure the fragmentation is increasing all that much, but it is at least a problem. I actually think that discussions like the vague RPG blog community are helping that. Whereas the Forge had some illusion of a monolithic identity, it's harder to look over the range of blogs (like the 20' by 20' Room and so forth) and see clear battle lines.

[info]immlass

November 30 2005, 16:36:47 UTC 6 years ago

You might want to talk to [info]mcurry, who's on the con committee for The Black Road (a Boston-based regional Ambercon), about the evolution of indie gaming at TBR. Last year at TBR, I played and/or GMed Amber-themed Everway (not so indie, but still) and Amber-themed Cats. There was also Amber-themed Nobilis (again, not so indie), Mountain Witch, and a scheduled game of DitV that had to be dropped when the GM had to go to Europe instead of coming to the convention.

[info]losrpg

December 1 2005, 03:00:03 UTC 6 years ago

On a related note, I've taken a look at the gamebook for this year's ACNW (http://www.amberconnw.org/acnwSite/Frame-Catalog-2005.html), and divided the games into rough categories. Here's what I came up with:

Freeform, Traditional Amber......27 games
Freeform, Amber Color............12 games
Freeform, non-Amber..............10 games
Amber, some other system.........2 games
Other games......................7 games
Gaming discussions...............2 games

Counting games only and excluding the gaming discussions, traditional Amber is 27/58, or 46.5% is traditional Amber.

The rough category definitions I used are:

Freeform, Traditional Amber -- this category is the "core" ADRP/freeform games with Amber as a subject matter. This includes spoofs like "Whose Throne Is It, Anyway?" and "The Chronicles of Corwynne Stormlord! (TM)" [the latter game using 6-inch action figures].

Freeform, Amber Color -- this category is for freeform games where the gameplay does not center on Amber-ness, but has enough ties to Amber to fit into the Con. Some of the other spoofy games like "Being Prince Benedict" and "Tea Party of Doom" are in this category.

Freeform, non-Amber -- these games seem to cluster around gritty, present-day, real-world superpowers. www.grand-design.net, based on the employees of a fictional web design company, has a real web site. Rumor has it that the GM has been emailed resumes from actual job seekers.

Amber, other system -- the games that use non-freeform/ADRP systems for an Amber-centered game.

Other games -- this includes stock games of Polaris, Dogs in the Vineyard, and Primetime Adventures as well as Amber-colored versions of board games, poker, and a scavenger hunt.


Freeform, Traditional Amber
Merry Hell
Princesses in Rebma
Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's Dead
The Floramelles
Oblivion's Reward
The Queen of Winter
Treasure Hunt ala Amber
Going to Disneyland
A Ghost in the Wired
Keys of Amber - A Fable
Bluebeard's Honour
Out of Time
Of Patriots and Tyrants
Save a Universe
Dark Amber: Nobody's Home
My Missing Troubador
A Symphony of Memory and Motion
Out of Heaven's Hands
Shadow Walk: Cobwebs and Dust
The Silver Glass
Amber That Was
A Festive Romp in Castle Amber
The Prince of Darkness
Softly Did The Shadows Bloom
The Unicorn School of Trouble
The Forms of Things Unknown
The Chronicles of Corwynne Stormlord! (TM)
Whose Throne Is It, Anyway?


Freeform, Amber Color
"Being Prince Benedict"
The Shadowwalker's Guide to the Universe
Asylum
The Sable Game - Funeral in Berlin
Tea Party of Doom [Part 6 of the Winnie-ther-Pooh/Amber games]
Pulp Chaos
Ship of State
Special Offer! New Vacation Package from Corey Travel!
Zelazny Affair 3: LiteraTech in Amber!
After all, what are friends for?
Of Kinship and Tears
Family Bonds

Freeform, non-Amber
www.grand-design.net
Aurellis
Exponential
Ultimate High School Testu No Sakana
ShadowWorld 1
ShadowWorld 2
ShadowWorld 3
The Music of the Spheres Game
A Green Unpleasant Land
Jurisfiction

Other system, Amber
Amber Shadows
Amber's Watchdogs


Other Games
AMBER PIRATES
Dogs in the Vineyard: Hobbestown [run twice]
Polaris
G.A.S.H. - The Great Ambercon Scavenger Hunt
Primetime Adventures
Random's Regular Game


discussions
Why Are You Sitting Here With Me Instead of Running a Game?
Gamestorm

Anonymous

December 1 2005, 05:59:04 UTC 6 years ago

Lee, that's really interesting. It's particularly striking to me that "Freeform, Non-Amber" swamps "Other System, Amber" and outnumbers "Other Games" too. Attendees are far more likely to abandon the subject matter of the ADRPG but keep the general method than to ditch the method and keep the subject matter, and somewhat more likely to abandon subject and keep method than to abandon subject AND method - all with, of course, provisos that people play in more than one slot and may combine different categories into their weekend. Instead of attendees I should probably say "mindshare," with is measured in attendee-slots.

Does that sound fair and meaningful, or am I misinterpreting something?

[info]jimhenley

December 1 2005, 05:59:49 UTC 6 years ago

Grr. I keep doing that. Me!

Anonymous

December 1 2005, 15:41:20 UTC 6 years ago

Method is the hard part to change. Especially when it's tacit and culturally mediated rather than "read this."

Also, subject matter gets mined out over time for repeat play. Depending on the level of turnover in the population, that effect alone would drive migration to new imagined content - particularly if the stronger motivation is a technical or social agenda.

Mark W

[info]losrpg

December 1 2005, 18:05:02 UTC 6 years ago

Well, the thing is, you only play with the system when you want it to do something it doesn't already do, or when you just feel like tweaking with systems. For the most part, that's not all that often.

You abandon subject whenever you've got a cool idea for something to play that doesn't fit into the the subject. That's more often.

[info]jhkimrpg

December 1 2005, 19:33:48 UTC 6 years ago

Attendees are far more likely to abandon the subject matter of the ADRPG but keep the general method than to ditch the method and keep the subject matter, and somewhat more likely to abandon subject and keep method than to abandon subject AND method

There is more diversity of method than might be implied by the classification here. For example, I know "The Unicorn School of Trouble" used an extended system involving bidding and customized cards in character generation. A lot of people there have scorn for many of the specifics of Wujcik's book -- keeping only rough features of it. Their methods are similar in that they are diceless and involve a GM, but there is considerable variation of technique.

[info]losrpg

December 1 2005, 21:15:57 UTC 6 years ago

There is more diversity of method than might be implied by the classification here.

Oh, absolutely. Within that category of "Freeform Amber" there is a large variation both in formal rules like you mention AND in social contract and unwritten/informal rules. I think the key to ACNW's success is in solid communication about these rules.

I've written an LJ entry here that discusses this in more detail.

[info]pjack

December 2 2005, 16:38:55 UTC 6 years ago

Bear in mind that technically, in order to use the "AmberCon" title for the Con, all games must either 1.) Relate to Amber in some way, or 2.) use the ADRPG rules in some way.

I suspect that there would be a lot more "Alternative RPGs" played at AmberCon NW if that was not the case.

[info]zdashamber

December 6 2005, 23:05:49 UTC 6 years ago

I believe that's something Erick Wujcik said, that many people took at face value, but technically that's not the case. Wujcik never trademarked the name "AmberCon." [info]a2macgeek did, and she has no such rules in place.

[info]jhkimrpg

December 6 2005, 23:50:24 UTC 6 years ago

Yes, there's no dictatorial restriction from the organizers. For example, at ACNW 2005, I played in a Primetime Adventures game that had nothing to do with Amber, and there was a straight Dogs in the Vineyard game as well. The convention identifies itself as being unified by diceless roleplaying and/or Zelazny's Amber series. There was a note in the form to register games about "Non-Amber Games":
We encourage people to be creative with the diceless format. If you have a game that uses a form of the basic Amber DRPG rules but is not set in Amber, you are welcome to post the game. Remember, however, that most people attending the convention want at least a majority of their games to be set in the Amber multiverse. Unlike a regular Amber game, if a non-Amber game does not completely fill we cannot freely assign people to it to complete the schedule since we cannot assume a basic familiarity and interest in the setting.
So there's a slight discouragement in the verbiage, but in practice the organizers were fine with scheduling non-Amber games.
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