jhkimrpg ([info]jhkimrpg) wrote,
@ 2006-01-09 11:51:00
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Entry tags:dawn of fire, dnd

Post-Apocalyptic D&D... now with more Dragons
So I just had a cool suggestion for my post-apocalyptic D&D idea. I had originally outlined this in October in a post entitled, Breaking Down D&D -- and followed up with some more system thoughts in Characterization and System.

I had been waffling about what I think the apocalypse should be. I knew from the start that it had to be something which broke down the alignment barriers -- i.e. the destruction had to be something which wasn't evil per se and didn't care about alignment. My leading idea had been some sort of rain of giant insectoid or arachnoid creatures, but I wasn't very satisfied with that.

Anyhow, yesterday I brought this up with my fellow Hârn players after our game, and Dennis (?) had a great suggestion -- dragons!! Jim immediately made a reference to the recent Reign of Fire film, where dragons take over the modern world. I hadn't seen the film, so I didn't know abou that. Hoewver, judged on its own, I immediately liked it. D&D dragons are both good and evil, and it is a wonderful reversal. I can picture it fairly clearly now -- there is a dragon prophet who appears and begins to fly about with the news. It tells of the dawn of a new age, when the dragons will finally come into their own. Then, very suddenly, the shift happens and within weeks the world is overrun with dragons. After the cataclysm, dragons can reproduce and mature very quickly as needed. They are not centrally organized, but rather have hordes of little kingdoms which squabble amongst each other but are united against non-dragon threats.

What I like about this:

  • It uses the core of the D&D mythology.
  • It is a wonderful reversal. As majestic winged creatures, dragons take over the surface world, and humans are forced into dungeon lairs. It so clearly reverses the game.
  • Dragons are very well-tested, well-developed, and varied foes within the D20 system. I can tailor encounters with the enemy carefully.
I think these are all very good things for what I want to accomplish. The point is to make the fights and the stakes for the PCs much more personal. They are not wandering adventurers looking to grab some cash. Everything that is left of their world they are taking with them and making for themselves.

I only have a handful of concerns. One is that this touches on works I'm not familiar with like "Reign of Fire" and more importantly the Dragonlance series. I know little about either of these, and I suspect I want to clearly differentiate myself from them. I also want to be careful about the good-aligned metallic dragons. I want to keep them roughly as they are written (i.e. good-aligned), but still make them horribly horribly dangerous under the circumstances.

I'd also be interested in dungeon recommendations from anyone who knows about D&D3. What are good modules with largish underground dungeons in general?



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[info]jamused
2006-01-09 08:26 pm UTC (link)
It's a neat idea, but one thing that's different from your original set-up that you'll have to deal with is that D&D dragons are intelligent and can converse with other intelligent creatures. I think most players will expect to be able to negotiate with them somehow.

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[info]sim_james
2006-01-09 08:35 pm UTC (link)
   There is some chance of similarity to Dragonlance here, but you should be able to make your campaign significantly different without too much trouble.

   The premise of Dragonlance is that an evil goddess wants to rule the world, and starts with a military campaign before she can enter the world physically. Because she’s the goddess of dragons, her armies are designed around these creatures (which had been absent from the world during her own banishment). Initially the metallic dragons are blackmailed into abstaining from the conflict, but they eventually return to assist the good-aligned armies. And there’s the dragonlances, divine weapons specifically designed to be used on dragonback, against dragons.

   So things to avoid: using any specifically draconic deities; dragons as military units; conflict on a good-versus-evil divide; divine anti-dragon weaponry.
   

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[info]jhkimrpg
2006-01-09 10:26 pm UTC (link)
Aha! Thanks for the info. I think this pushes me more in the direction I was already leaning -- emphasizing the bestial, instinctive nature of dragons. They may form bands or perhaps even hordes, but never armies. They will sleep out in the open and take what they like, since the world is now theirs. And somehow I want to keep the gods out of it more.

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[info]zdashamber
2006-01-09 08:52 pm UTC (link)
Oo, that's really neat. It reminds me of the Sandman story "Dream of 1000 Cats." Have you read it? A cat prophet comes to a gathering of housecats and tells of how once the world was run by giant cats and humans were their food and playthings, and then the humans dreamed the world to what it is now, but if 1000 cats on one night dream the same dream, it will go back to being the way it was.

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[info]jhkimrpg
2006-01-09 09:57 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I've read it -- I had a long Sandman kick for a while, now replaced by Strangers in Paradise, Finder, and Astro City. (Of course, the key line being in the end -- "There's no way you can get a thousand cats to do anything the same.") :-)

It changes my original vision slightly as I was at first picturing a more mindless ravaging destruction, whereas now it will be a chaotic, factional, but individually intelligent destruction. I think the dragons will have to be given good reason to be genocidal on the humanoid races. Perhaps the same prophecy about their rise can say that unless they wipe out the humanoids they will fall.

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[info]eyemage
2006-01-09 09:16 pm UTC (link)
I like the idea as well...

perhaps a bit more of a twist...

some event or prophecy occurance does happen,
The dragons are affected all over.
Those who can leave in time do,
Those that remain are changed.

Im thinking of something along the lines of Amplified Dragons.
But their intellect alignments are messed up.
Massive power boost but no control as it were.

Just my view of the concept...
I do think you are on the right path.

Good luck!

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[info]the_never
2006-01-09 09:17 pm UTC (link)
As far as published "dungeons" .. there are a lot of them, but you may have to retool the encounters to get what you want. It depends on what you are looking for.

If you are planning on retooling encounters anyway (to get this whole dragon thing going on), I would suggest doing it yourself- graph paper and google an online encounter generator, or do it by hand. You'll get a better appreciation for how it all works together. I use E-Tools, but that costs money. You may wish to check out PC-Gen (which is free and does the same thing). The most useful website right now for both D&D GMs and players is http://d20srd.org - it has all of the open source info from most of the core sources gathered in one location with a nice search engine.

If you are mainly just looking for maps and you plan on using miniatures, the Fantastic Locations series might appeal to you. The cool thing about those is they have full size (as in you lay it out like a battleboard) maps in full color. Or just get a set of kids wooden blocks. The Fantastic Locations modules that I know about are Hellspike Prison and Fane of the Drow. They have minimal adventures attached, but absolutely great maps.

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[info]jhkimrpg
2006-01-09 10:04 pm UTC (link)
I would want to retool the encounters as little as possible. My idea is to take dungeon modules more-or-less as is, but approaching them from a very different perspective -- place to live rather than place to loot, caring nothing for money and little for alignment.

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[info]the_never
2006-01-09 11:03 pm UTC (link)
In that case you might like the Fantastic Locations ones I mentioned or something like the Goodman Games modules (which are done in a retro style).

I'm a big fan of the free "make your own encounters up" route, but I heard good things about these.

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[info]cpxbrex
2006-01-09 09:48 pm UTC (link)
I've actually wanted to play in a dragon apocalpyse game for a longish time. I did some thinking about it and even got a presumptive title for the game: "A Plague of Dragons". Even from a very young age, dragons are horribly dangerous creatures, after all, so the premise was that there was a huge birthing event -- in one fell swoop, dragons would become the most numerous predator on the planet, overrunning all other predators. And because they are, from birth, so naturally intelligent and charismatic, even the young ones would be smart enough not to destroy their environment through overconsumption and would engage in a great draconic game of politics from the very inception.

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[info]heiligekuh
2006-01-09 10:04 pm UTC (link)
Not that I'd proclaim myself a D&D Dragon expert by any means, but I would think that suddenly dominant dragon population could become incredibly species-centered. To their eyes the world has been delivered unto them. Good aligned dragons may still be sympathetic to an individual biped, but it would be on the order of saving a snail from your garden. Dragons may have moments of pity, but they're not going to let the snails take the world back.

By the by, we played a few games together at KublaCon 04 (the New Orleans Buffy game with the neat gender-swapped ghost scene, and the first chunk of your Conan game). I found your LJ via FindPlay and Forge and have been lurking here for a few weeks.

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[info]judd_sonofbert
2006-01-09 10:28 pm UTC (link)
I had a thread called D&D apocolypse and now I'm just trying like hell to find it. Will let you know if I should track it down.

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[info]judd_sonofbert
2006-01-09 10:30 pm UTC (link)
Woot, here it is.

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[info]jhkimrpg
2006-01-09 11:00 pm UTC (link)
Interesting -- I should probably float my idea past the ENWorld folks to see how D&D experts nitpick it. I'm not sure I understand your concept. I can see how it works as fiction, but I don't see what sort of game it would make. You linked to a Story Hour Thread where you listed four 1st level PCs, but you didn't mention what those PCs would be doing. Yours seems to be a war story sort of setting -- the PCs being soldiers in a cosmic open war between good and evil. Is that right? Would the PCs go out on various missions for the cause?

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[info]judd_sonofbert
2006-01-10 06:59 am UTC (link)
I gots no idea.

That was a thread from a long, long time ago.

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Dragons and Dungeons
[info]amberley
2006-01-10 01:40 am UTC (link)
Reign of Fire was a terrible movie made from an excellent idea -- you might want to rent and suffer through it as research. It did make me want to run a Morrow Project campaign recovering not from nuclear war, but a plague of dragons.

As for Dungeon modules, World's Largest Dungeon is certainly overkill, but I might suggest Sunless Citadel, Reverse Dungeon (in which you are brave goblins defending against marauding heroes), and Forge of Fury. Forge is set in a dwarven stronghold built into a cave complex, that fell through orc treachery, but it has some large spaces in it and would adapt pretty well to a campaign with dragons as the main opposition, I think.

Maybe the gods all killed each other and the dragons are their drops of blood. A dragon-fighting campaign set in a Midnight-like setting with limited magic and healing would be a lot harder; damage reduction is a lot scarier to face without magic weapons.

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Dungeon
(Anonymous)
2006-01-10 02:46 pm UTC (link)
Heya,

Night Below has a huge dungeon, but I'm not sure you'd want to use it. It emphasizes Illithids and Aboleths to a great degree. Sounds like you want to stay away from that sort of thing.

I'd also just like to add that making the dragons more dragonish will work well for you. They're flying lizards right? Well, lizards are bestial. They're tough. So make your dragons brutal and powerful.

Dragons have always liked to hoard things. So what do they hoard now? What is their motivation for ruling and sustaining their rule?

Has a new self-religion established itself among the dragons? Do they worship themselves as gods, or do they openly defy the gods and secretly plan to assault them next?

What do the characters do in relation to the dragons? Are they trying to survive against them? Are they searching out refugees to bring to safety? Are they trying to overthrow them? Or are they flocking to join them?

Neat premise for a game, John.

Peace,

-Troy_Costisick

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[info]adamdray
2006-01-12 09:52 pm UTC (link)
Dungeon Magazine has been doing this "Age of Worms" Adventure Path series. I don't know a lot about it but you might be able to get ideas from the Paizo Age of Worms forum.

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Metallic dragons are cool...
(Anonymous)
2006-01-14 07:14 am UTC (link)
...so are ones carved from wood.

I was surfing around and I found your blog. I'm posting here because I just met an amazing artist named Jonathan Gage who carves dragons from solid bocks of Raintree wood and thought you might want to see his site. Each one takes him days and days to carve and they are all different I ended up buying two from him after I saw them. I love the fact that the wood has light and dark areas to it. Thought you might find them as cool as I do.

Here is the link to his site: http://www.fineartdragons.com/

Let me know what you think of them! My name is Mike and I'm a writer and D&D fan in Los Angeles.

Take care,

Mike

P.s. Tell Jonathan I sent you if you end up contacting him regarding his art. Thanks!

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