jhkimrpg ([info]jhkimrpg) wrote,
@ 2008-01-28 16:37:00
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Entry tags:industry

The Ethics of Open Content
So there was a recent thread on RPGnet, I found out about some accusations about me that I was disturbed by. The accusations have to do with System Reference Documents Page on my site.

As explanation of the page... In 2000, with the release of Wizards of the Coast's SRD, I started up a separate page of open content that did not use trademarks like "D20 System" or "Dungeons & Dragons". At first it was just the fantasy SRD from WotC, which I converted to HTML for easy browsing, as well as spell and monster data as XML or MySQL. I later added the Modern SRD and fantasy 3.5 SRD (from Wizards of the Coast) as well as other open-content sources from a number of publishers -- including the Anime SRD (derived from Mark C. MacKinnon's BESM d20 system), the "action-oriented SRD" (derived from Mark Arsenault's Action! System), the "runic SRD" (derived from Matthew Sprange's RuneQuest - based on original material by Greg Stafford), the Fudge SRD (derived from Steffan O'Sullivan's Fudge system), and the FATE SRD (derived from Fred Hicks and Robert Donoghue's Fudge variant FATE). All of these were converted the content into HTML for easy browsing.

My intent with this was as a resource for people developing open-content games, that this would be a like a library of open content to draw on. By having a bunch of open-content mechanics in one place in an easy-to-browse (and human-readable) format, it makes it easier to compare and contrast, and avoid re-inventing the wheel.

The Specific Controversy

A fellow RPGnetter informed me by PM that Chris Helton was making some claims on RPGnet about my SRD collection, specifically about my collection of OGC from Green Ronin that I labelled the "True SRD". In a recent RPGnet thread, he commented about "Except that violates some of Green Ronin's IP from Blue Rose, and the compiler won't take it down despite requests." ("True20 Licensing Fees To Go Away" - Jan '08) Also, I found that a few months earlier he had cited a source for this, saying: "In fact Nicole Lindroos has said that the 'True' SRD has a number of Green Ronin's Product Identity in it." ("Thoughts on & Questions about the True SRD" - Jun '07). I have not received any official notice from Green Ronin about any such OGL violation. However, they have stated that they are opposed to free sharing of their open content (see below).

Also, in the discussion several other posters suggested that I was an asshole or an unbelieveable jerk for posting open content from Green Ronin.

What I've Done

I've been maintaining my SRDs page since 2000 when I posted various parsings of the original fantasy SRD from Wizards of the Coast. I also had been a fan of the Blue Rose RPG when it came out in early 2005, and created my Blue Rose fan pages with various content and utilities. In June of 2005, I first asked on the Green Ronin True20 boards about the idea of creating an archive of some of the open material. The discussion thread is archived as "True System Reference Document" (GR forums, June 2005).

In that thread, I asked if there was moderate position where some of the open-content material might be released. The response from Chris Pramas was no -- they did not want any of their open material ever being shared. I stated that I disliked this position, but that for the time I would do what they wanted.

At that point, I had an archive of the open-content system material for Blue Rose, that I used for my own interest. However, in keeping with what they wanted, I kept it in a password-protected directory. I would occasionally give out the password, telling people "This is open game content, but don't repost it because the creators don't want their open content freely shared." After a while, though, that explanation felt pretty hollow to me -- particularly after the original source line (Blue Rose) was closed.

So towards the end of 2006, I removed the password protection from that directory. I didn't announce this anywhere, but I did list it mixed in with the other SRDs on my SRD page.

The Ethics

There are some general ethical questions here.

Is it legal?

Yes, all the SRDs are legal following the terms of the OGL. Regarding the True SRD, Green Ronin openly disapproves of it, so presumably if they felt there was a legal violation they would inform me of it. (By the terms of the OGL, I would have 30 days to cure such breach.) There were two claims in the RPGnet threads of violations. (1) was that my calling it the "True SRD" violates the trademark clause, because "True" is too close to Green Ronin's trademark "True20". Of course, Green Ronin sells the True20 System knowing that it relates it to WotC's D20 System. (2) was that the use of nationality adjectives like "Aldins" in the favored skills/feats table of Chapter 1 constitutes a violation of Product Identity (PI) of Blue Rose. Blue Rose declared "character and place names, histories, and description" to be PI, but this doesn't strictly include race names or nationalities.

Isn't it wrong because it hurts the companies?

I can't really tell if or how much it may hurt companies involved. Making the open content easier to browse and access could hurt sales of books containing that material. For example, a group might only buy one book, and simply browse open content for additional reference. On the other hand, having the open content there could raise interest in the books, and help sales.

But supposing the former is true, should I take down open content to encourage buying books that have it? I do feel some desire to help companies, but on the other hand I think gamers and designers benefit from being able to browse open content. As a parallel, I do post negative reviews, which hurts companies, but I think it is good for the field as a whole.

Is it wrong if the company objects?

While I'm concerned about harm to companies, I'm less concerned about their demands. In particular, I don't want to punish generosity on the part of companies. That is, if one company is helpful with making its open content accessible while another complains about any sharing of its open content, I wouldn't want to punish the former. So if I'm going to take down open content, it should be on the basis of harm rather than how possessive the company acts about its open content.

The Questions for Me

The question for me is whether I should change or remove my SRD collection. My previous behavior has basically been to keep open content material offline for some time (1 to 2 years), which allows for a fairly large window of profit. Offhand, that seems like a reasonable compromise to me. Still, I'm open to opinions.



(Post a new comment)


[info]lpsmith
2008-01-29 12:58 am UTC (link)
It seems to me that Green Ronin is trying to have their cake and eat it too. Nobody is forcing them to release anything to the SRD; when they do, they should expect to have it disseminated. If they want to do something else, they should come up with a different license. It sounds to me like they want to sound like they're being hip and cool by releasing stuff to the SRD, but without actually following the terms of the SRD.

(Reply to this)


[info]the_tall_man
2008-01-29 01:19 am UTC (link)
I think a large number of said companies are being assholes about this, not to put too fine a point on it.

"It's open content!"

"Oh, we didn't reeeeeealy mean that!"

Put plainly? Fuck that. Open Content is Open.

(Reply to this)


[info]mearls
2008-01-29 01:35 am UTC (link)
I wouldn't take anything down. I'd rather not see you cater to ignorant and deceitful tactics. If something is open, it should be treated as such. The RPG open movement has been shredded enough without companies making stuff effectively closed.

I find it all kinds of dumb that companies want to reap the benefits of open source materials without contributing to the very processes by which they profit. I'm sure the very same companies would cry foul if WotC didn't release open content for 4e.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]spkelley
2008-01-29 02:48 am UTC (link)
This is an interesting point mearls. I wonder what Fantasy Flight Games would say if you took all their midnight rules, which are open content, while all their fluff is clearly marked closed, and just made your own fluff. Would they put up a stink?

BTW John, that may be one to add if you have not already done so:
http://darknessfalls.leaderdesslok.com/

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sixthsecret, 2008-01-29 03:19 am UTC

[info]drivingblind
2008-01-29 03:06 am UTC (link)
I really like the guys at Green Ronin. Lemme say that up front.

That said, it feels outright archaic to take on a policy that open content shouldn't be distributed.

Claims of harm are also something I tend to find pretty laughable. Spirit of the Century's sold a number of copies on the basis of people reading the SRD we have on http://www.faterpg.com and seeing it as a reason to buy the game.

At the end of the day, I gotta back what Mearls is saying here. They should be thanking you for putting up that SRD. It's advertising.

Edited at 2008-01-29 03:07 am UTC

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]bruceb, 2008-01-29 03:50 am UTC

[info]burned_nib
2008-02-01 06:03 pm UTC (link)
Looking forward to seeing what is actually Open Content for 4e.

Dropping the OGL for the GSL isn't the most encouraging development (of many developments that have slowly but surely backed off from the 3e ideal of the OGL).

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]eyebeams
2008-01-29 02:03 am UTC (link)
My first question, John is whether you really want an honest response. Because that response is that nobody really knows whether your project was legal, and using the existence or absence of letters from a lawyer to determine that is basically a dick move. It's like arguing that if I kick you in the nuts and it's not convenient for you to call the cops, my nut-kicking behaviour is "presumably legal." Just as we bear the responsibility not to kick people in the junk when it suits us, regardless of the consequences, we bear the responsibility for exercising dilligence in our use of intellectual property. And, "Nobody's sued!" is not dilligent at all.

That said, if you replaced contentious parts of the SRD with your own creations, it would at least demonstrate a good faith attempt to respect the whole IP, regardless of what a judge might decide in a wholly theoretical court case. Aside from requiring minimal original effort on your part, it would be significantly less dickish-looking.





(Reply to this)(Thread)

What the Hell?
[info]rcade [typekey.com]
2008-01-29 02:23 am UTC (link)
What part of "I have not received any official notice from Green Ronin about any such OGL violation" are you not getting, Eyebeams? Your attitude sucks. If Green Ronin can't be bothered to contact Kim directly to identify material it feels is improper, he's under no obligation to pre-emptively remove material they *might* object to.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: What the Hell? - [info]eyebeams, 2008-01-29 02:42 am UTC
Re: What the Hell? - [info]jamused, 2008-01-29 03:20 am UTC
Re: What the Hell? - [info]eyebeams, 2008-01-29 04:38 am UTC
Re: What the Hell? - [info]heron61, 2008-01-29 04:50 am UTC
Re: What the Hell? - [info]jhkimrpg, 2008-01-29 07:27 am UTC
Re: What the Hell? - [info]eyebeams, 2008-01-29 08:50 am UTC
Re: What the Hell? - [info]jhkimrpg, 2008-01-29 09:17 am UTC
Re: What the Hell? - [info]jamused, 2008-01-29 02:02 pm UTC

[info]jhkimrpg
2008-01-29 04:23 am UTC (link)
I'm not sure I'm following. When you refer to "contentious parts" -- do you mean the Aldean nationality names in the Favored Skills and Feats table that Chris Helton cited? So including that, you claim, was a dick move -- but that if I removed those table entries and replaced them with something else, then I would no longer be a dick. Is that right?

The thing is that in practice what Green Ronin dislikes is making the bulk of True20 system content available for free -- which they feel could cut into their profits from current True20 Adventure Roleplaying sales. They could care less about references to the defunct Blue Rose setting material in the Favored Skills and Feats table.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]eyebeams, 2008-01-29 04:52 am UTC
Open source is also about cloning - (Anonymous), 2008-01-29 06:56 am UTC
Re: Open source is also about cloning - [info]eyebeams, 2008-01-29 08:07 am UTC
Decency? Petty entitlement? - (Anonymous), 2008-01-29 09:10 am UTC
Re: Decency? Petty entitlement? - [info]eyebeams, 2008-01-29 09:19 am UTC
Re: Decency? Petty entitlement? - (Anonymous), 2008-01-29 05:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_tall_man, 2008-01-29 07:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eyebeams, 2008-01-29 08:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_tall_man, 2008-01-29 08:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ptang, 2008-01-29 07:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eyebeams, 2008-01-29 08:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ptang, 2008-01-29 10:16 am UTC

[info]heron61
2008-01-29 04:46 am UTC (link)
I must admit being a bit puzzled by your reactions. If they haven't sent a cease and desist message of any sort, then there's no problem. It's not like doing so would be any particular effort. From my PoV, people complaining about this look a whole lot like they are complaining about the fact that open content actually means open content.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jhkimrpg, 2008-01-29 07:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eyebeams, 2008-01-29 08:25 am UTC

[info]jamused
2008-01-29 02:20 am UTC (link)
It seems pretty clear by the terms of the OGL License (Section 8) that Green Ronin is obliged to clearly mark everything in True20 that is Open Content, as well as reproduce the license, or else have breached their license and their right to publish the product containing any OGL content at all. Furthermore, the mere presence of Product Identity in a section doesn't automatically mark that section as non-Open Content (Section 7). I don't have a copy of True20, so I can't tell whether it was released under the OGL at all (though their website says it is), let alone whether Green Ronin did what they were supposed to, but if they did, and the SRD merely compiles the content marked as Open, then by the terms of the OGL anybody at all is free to use that content as long as they also abide by the terms. If the SRD takes information out of True20 that wasn't marked as Open, then it's a violation of Green Ronin's copyrights even if under the terms of the OGL they were required to mark it as Open. You can't repair their breech of the license by violating their copyright.

(Reply to this)


[info]evilandi
2008-01-29 02:21 am UTC (link)
Hrm. Well, here's my spare change, and some insight from having done a smidge of study on copyright law... This is what I've gleaned reading over ver 1.0a of the Wizards Open Gaming License.

1) Part 8 (Identification) says they need to identify which parts are Open and which are not. If they don't make any distinction... I guess they could technically come and say "None of it's open." However, if they didn't make clear anywhere which was which, you could have a case that there was no identification and therefore they're in trouble with failure to comply to the License. (BTW, Wizards makes it very clear on their site that anyone can use their content, so their stuff is always considered free to use, but others may not)

2) Part 11 (Use of Contributor Credits) states that you'd need written permission from the Contributor to market or advertise any part of the Open Game Content, and putting it into a usable form online may be seen that way. You're basically making a Derivative... however there's ways around that as well. Take the phone book example - if you were to make a phone book, that's breaking Copyright law, since you're taking an existing document and reproducing it. However, if you made a phone book of "Bob's favorite places to call" and formatted it or limited it to a certain set of numbers, then you have something you could copyright yourself.

So there's those two law things... the other thing which I may not completely understand is the Green Ronin/Blue Rose/True SRD love child fiasco... It sounds like One uses the other in their OGC, and they're going after you for reposting it? If A gave B permission, and you got permission from B, then it should just go across the board. Once A gives its permission to B, that's it, they've opened the gates. However, I may be wrong in how I'm reading it.

I would add something to your legal page saying "This is only a reproduction of (insert OGC peeps here) content, you must seek their permission if you wish to use their OGC." So that you make sure you're only offering clean text for them to use, not extending the original creator's OGL.

Like I said, I'm full of spare change. Personally, I think you have a great resource. I hope you keep it open and available for others to use.

(Reply to this)


[info]chris_goodwin
2008-01-29 03:46 am UTC (link)
If the license allows you to publish it, by all means publish it. They can't release it under a license that allows you to publish it but then say "But we really didn't mean it."

(Reply to this)


[info]carpe_noir
2008-01-29 04:10 am UTC (link)
John, I realized that I didn't bother to answer your question and rather just kinda went off on a ramble. Sorry, and here's answers to your questions.

Should you remove your SRD collection? No, I don't think so.

Should you change it? Possibly, and in a number of ways. My comments are based on looking at the True SRD, and may or may not be generally applicable to other SRDs.

1. I think that the second claim is worthy of further consideration. That distinction seems an awfully lot like hair-splitting, and either way it's a bit weird. If things such as nationality adjectives are PI, then there's a problem, obviously. If they are not, then there is a =small= amount of setting material in your SRD, which is awkward since there is no more, and there's a lot of context and explanation missing. Removing or modifying such words shouldn't compromise the usefulness of a system reference document.

2. The text reads an awful lot like a RPG book, even including a section about what is a role-playing game. Such a section seems even odder to include than setting material that is open content.

3. Keeping open content material offline or restricted seems to be rather silly if you have it available.

=-=-=

I notice that Green Ronin isn't doing anything nasty in the threads referenced by John. The most extreme statement from them is basically "expressing disappointment". There's a post 10 days ago that reiterates so, and accepts the current situation, and =does= =not= even imply that they want John to make any changes.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]jhkimrpg
2008-01-29 05:09 am UTC (link)
Hm. I would prefer for there to be a generalized rule of thumb, rather than making a special case for the True SRD.

Regarding #1, it's true that there isn't any description of, say, Forest Folk in the True SRD -- but that is true for most of the other SRDs as well. In all the SRDs, it has been to include names and mechanical stats for races and monsters -- but not a full description. If I remove race information from the True SRD, then to be consistent I should remove it from the fantasy and other SRDs as well.

Regarding #2, while it's true that WotC's fantasy and modern SRDs don't include explanatory text -- other SRDs do, like the action-oriented SRD, Perfect20, FATE, etc. It was clearly designated as open content in Blue Rose, so I don't see any reason to remove it. For stylistic consistency, I'd prefer to add material to WotC's SRDs.

Regarding #3, well... the paychecks of RPG designers are pretty meager as it is, so while it might seem silly, I'm willing to give benefit of the doubt.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]eyebeams, 2008-01-29 08:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jhkimrpg, 2008-01-29 08:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eyebeams, 2008-01-29 09:20 am UTC

[info]urbeatle
2008-01-29 06:24 am UTC (link)
First of all, you aren't a dick. I've interacted with you online and I'm pretty certain of this.

Second, I can buy that the names of nationalities might actually be PI, even if it's not clearly labeled as such. The crux of the matter is: is the phrase "character and place names, histories, and description" meant to be read as ("character and place names", "histories", "description") or as "character and place (names, histories, description)"? Does "character and place" modify "names", or each of the three items? I interpreted the phrase the first way, which means that "Aldins" is a descriptive adjective, unique to their setting, and therefore PI. However, I can see how the phrase is ambiguous.

Third, as [info]mearls points out, the OGL is the OGL; I respect Green Ronin's desire to profit from their product, but if they are going to use the OGL to create a derivative product, then they are obligated to allow open use of the derivative elements and obligated to designate what their PI is. If they feel they shouldn't have to let anyone use anything they created, they shouldn't release it under the OGL.

So, what I would do in your situation is: remove the descriptive text that could conceivably be considered "PI". Post a notice to that effect. If Green Ronin contacts you about the content, ask them nicely for clarification on which elements are product identity and which elements are open gaming content. If they reply "none of it is open," reply that you will respectfully remove their content from your website, but that you are forwarding a copy of their letter to WotC legal.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]jhkimrpg
2008-01-29 07:31 am UTC (link)
Well, I don't think it will change anyone's opinions about anything, but I've removed the names from the favored skills and feats table.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]jimboboz
2008-01-29 07:30 am UTC (link)
Anyone who questions the integrity of you is a stupid cocksmock, and you should tell them to go fuck themselves.

It's hardly "open content" if you can't share it. But hey, in the end it's their stuff - so if they ask you to take it down, take it down and replace it with a page saying,

"open" content taken down at request of copyright holder; good game, pity the copyright holders are idiots

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]the_tall_man
2008-01-29 07:35 am UTC (link)
"Anyone who questions the integrity of you is a stupid cocksmock, and you should tell them to go fuck themselves"

This is plain truth.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]marcochacon
2008-01-30 05:01 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I'm pretty much gonna have to agree with this.

-Marco

(Reply to this)(Parent)

(no subject) - [info]jhkimrpg, 2008-01-30 08:15 pm UTC

[info]gbsteve
2008-01-29 09:41 am UTC (link)
Who lives by open content also dies by open content. You have no obligation, as I see, moral or legal, to remove something designed to be openly available.

They promised to keep it open, they shouldn't be surprised or even hurt when someone does.

In any case, I imagine it will start to lose its shine when 4e comes out and they'll be less worried about it.

Any loss of good will towards you over this really seems like sour grapes but you have to bear this in mind I guess.

Edited at 2008-01-29 09:54 am UTC

(Reply to this)


[info]mister_jack
2008-01-29 04:07 pm UTC (link)
You are as I see it standing firmly on the moral high ground. Ronin meanwhile are attempting to profit from someone else's hardwork while denying others the ability to benefit from theirs - the very opposite of the Open ethic.

Whether the Open ethic itself is functional in print publishing is very much their problem, not yours.

(Reply to this)


[info]jamused
2008-01-29 05:52 pm UTC (link)
I didn't exactly answer your question about ethics vs. the technicalities of the OGL license, so here goes:

By releasing under the OGL the copyright holder is subscribing to an ethic that holds, at least for the particular work, that copying, editing, modifying and redistributing are good and desirable. No ifs, ands, buts, or we didn't really mean for you to do that. Copyright holders who don't agree with that ethic shouldn't release OGL material. People who maintain collections of material who don't agree with that ethic shouldn't host OGL material. If you do agree with that ethic, then it seems to me the objections of people who disagree with it are irrelevant.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]urbeatle, 2008-01-29 06:27 pm UTC

[info]highmoonmedia
2008-01-31 07:26 pm UTC (link)
That SRD page is an awesome tool; keep it. I have all the books the material comes from, but this is great for when I'm working and I need to quickly reference, search or copy.

(Reply to this)


[info]iamnikchick
2008-02-01 11:02 pm UTC (link)
John, whoever attributed to me any claims that there are "violations" in your product was mistaken. I've not said any such thing.

As I've said repeatedly whenever I've seen the subject come up: Green Ronin has not launched any objections outside of telling you when ASKED how we felt that we weren't crazy about our for-sale content being offered for free as an "SRD". You asked, we answered. We've never EVER tried to stop anyone from using the OGL and our OGC! We've never bad-mouthed you, never raised a protest, never interfered with your project, never claimed it was in violation of the OGL. NOTHING. Not to mention this entire conversation took place two and a half YEARS ago, under very different circumstances (for example, my company was trying to recover from the Osseum debacle--the six-figure extent of the damage to our company was not widely known at the time but was certainly hanging over us as we wrestled with answering questions like "Hey, love that stuff you're selling, mind if I give it away on the internet?").

This whole ancient conversation was only even resurrected because we announced that we're removing trademark licensing fees and other restrictions! Please, let that sink in. We're not trying to have our cake and eat it too, we're not being assholes, we're not engaging in "ignorant and deceitful tactics": we're OPENING UP True20 more than it's ever been open before. Green Ronin has an excellent history of putting up more open content than most if not all of the other for-profit OGL publishers! We've opened our content from day one. We never engaged in any of the machinations to lock down as much as possible, which you saw from other publishers such as Sword and Sorcery. I've tried whenever possible to clearly express my position whenever I've seen this topic come up, and while we fall more on the side of expecting that the OGL provides OGC for development purposes than some we have never ever ever EVER EVER EVER said you "can't" do it. Ever.

This post and the comments that follow paint us as a bunch of ignorant, "deceitful" assholes who are trying to weasel out of the terms of the OGL and interfere with other users just because it doesn't suit our selfish desires and I think that is a grossly unfair characterization of Green Ronin as a company and of the individuals who make her up. Please do not conflate the claims or actions of random fans and posters on internet message boards with any official positions, actions or "tactics" from Green Ronin!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jhkimrpg, 2008-02-02 12:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mearls, 2008-02-03 06:06 am UTC

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