jhkimrpg ([info]jhkimrpg) wrote,
@ 2008-03-12 10:44:00
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Gygax's Passing
A little more about D&D and Gary Gygax is in order, I think.

There has been a surprising outpouring of mainstream media attention to Gygax's death -- far more coverage of tabletop RPGs than I've seen in a while. In the New York Times article "Herald of a Global Imagination Revolution", Seth Schiesel wrote: "Without Mr. Gygax, there would have been no Ultima, no Wizardry, no Bard's Tale, no Zelda, no Final Fantasy, no Baldur's Gate, no EverQuest, no Lineage and certainly no World of Warcraft. But most important, without Mr. Gygax (pronounced GUY-gax) millions of people - mostly young men, but also some women - would never have discovered the liberating strength of their own imagination." On Wired, David Kushner wrote an extended article, "Dungeon Master: The Life and Legacy of Gary Gygax". NPR had a number of mentions of the event, most amusingly getting U.S. Secretary of Education Margaret Spelling to answer D&D trivia questions as part of "Wait Wait...Don't Tell Me!". There were a few critical pieces -- such as Slate Magazine's article, "With Dungeons & Dragons, Gary Gygax created a monster", by Erik Sofge -- in which he attacked D&D for its experience rewards for killing. But that was a rare exception.

Unsurprisingly, there have been many reactions within the RPG blog community -- almost all positive. For a while, Story Games had the title line "Thanks, Gary, For Our Hobby. You Will Be Missed." There wasn't a whole lot of substance to most of the threads, though, so I'm not including a lot of links.

I do find it sad -- Gygax pioneered the field, and added a fun, whimsical spin on fantasy. I didn't generally enjoy his writing, and his mechanics were clunky, but the larger structure of dungeon design was inspired and remains so. Other designers have created much superior rules, in my opinion, but the D&D style of dungeon design remains a key concept in structuring adventures.

As a rare exception, Matt Snyder posted "A guy who made a game. The end." -- saying "Clinging to Gary so you, the self-conscious gamer, can avoid feeling alone and awkward in your nerd shame is giving Gary a lot more credit than he deserves. You and your friends earned that by what you did." I don't see how credit can't be shared. If a writer credits an earlier author as their inspiration, eulogizing them on their death, it isn't generally taken as self-deprecating shame. Instead, it is considered respectful and appropriate.

However, it seems to me that game designers and gamers are often considered lesser than writers. A writer who mourns an influential predecessor is given more credit than a gamer who mourns a designer. In the media coverage, there is often good-humored mocking mixed with nostalgia. Though, to be fair, Gygax's D&D is not the most serious of works -- and should be compared perhaps to a popular pulp writer, who would also likely get some jokes.

Even though I've rarely played D&D since grade school, the game has still been a huge influence on me. I think Gygax has had more influence on me than any of my favorite novel authors, whose passings I would also mourn.


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[info]bruceb
2008-03-12 06:51 pm UTC (link)
That's a good summing up.

As I ended up explaining to Mom, it's not that I have any great attachment to the things Gygax helped make. But things I am attached to have their roots in them, whether it was building on them or reacting to them. And that's influence too.

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[info]jeffwik
2008-03-12 07:10 pm UTC (link)
One thing that I've looked for, in mainstream media Gygax obits, and noticed a dearth of, is a mention of D&D as something that has a new edition coming out soon, instead of something that people used to play way back in the Reagan era.

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(Anonymous)
2008-03-12 07:52 pm UTC (link)
It could be because Gary wasn't involved with any of the more recent versions of D&D. Although there are still lots of people playing those original games. ;)

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[info]jamused
2008-03-12 07:12 pm UTC (link)
In Gygax's honor I ran a Basic D&D game for my group last Sunday, and people enjoyed it so much that'll we'll probably do it again...at least to finish out the dungeon. I hadn't actually played Basic D&D before; my experience started with the so-called White Box edition, and skipped ahead to some AD&D (with a little bit of almost every RPG system that came out in between). I was surprised at how simple and clean the system was, given what I remembered of the cruftiness of AD&D, as well as how carefully it introduced the concepts and mechanics in the step-by-step choose-your-own-adventure at the start.

I got a pdf version of Basic D&D from rpgnow, and on a whim also got a pdf of the original white box version that I started with (for five bucks, why not?). Re-reading the original books after all these years, I marvel that I--or anyone--was actually able to figure out how to play the game.

Edited at 2008-03-13 02:11 am UTC

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[info]jhkimrpg
2008-03-13 06:16 pm UTC (link)
Well, it was something of an understatement to say that I did not admire his writing. He did get better from the white box version, but it was improvement from a very low starting point. :-)

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[info]zdashamber
2008-03-12 07:16 pm UTC (link)
Snyder. Man, he loves telling people how he can save them. Regardless of whether they're in trouble. Regardless of whether they asked. He's big that way. A regular model of chivalry.

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[info]mattsnyder
2008-03-12 09:48 pm UTC (link)
Hello. I'm Matt. You're Madeline, right? (Looked it up on your info.) Hi.

I think I see what you mean -- no one asked me to help them think better of themselves. You're right.

I don't think of myself as any model of chivalry. I'm just a guy, and I have opinions. I'm sorry our opinions clash currently, though I'm not sorry for holding my views or posting what I did.

You're welcome to reply on my blog any time to share your insight here.

Thanks,
Matt

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[info]zdashamber
2008-03-13 12:20 am UTC (link)
'Sup. I remember the time you said "I can solve those poor Amber players's troubles with GM fiat!" Two long discussions followed wherein Amber players were like, "Um, we're not having problems" and you were like, "When I say 'fiat' I'm not being judgemental!" At the end of this most recent link I see a bunch of general gamerdom saying, "Um, we aren't shame-filled basement-dwellers" and you're like, "When I say "ha ha you're in a basement' I'm not being judgemental!"

It's a pattern, and it's not a pattern that gets people to think well of your judgement.

Now, seeing problems and suggesting fixes is natural and not inherently bad. If you wanted to come across as more perspicacious and less overweening, you'd do well to mark out more clearly the group you're insulting (in this case, separate "gamers who suck" from "all gamers"; previously, separate "Amber players suffering under jealous GMs" from "all Amber players") and to own up to the fact that you're insulting them. Also good for your posture would be acknowledging that the group you're ranting about may be insignificant in the scheme of the larger group. Chivalry isn't an awesome thing because it doesn't allow for individual differences in the target group.

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[info]mattsnyder
2008-03-13 01:40 pm UTC (link)
I see. Sorry to have troubled you.

Using your same logic, I ask you to consider that my patterns of thought are troubling to some people like yourself, rather than than people in general who don't think well of my judgment. I think there's evidence some people do indeed think well of my judgment, and I find that heartening.

Have fun gaming!
-Matt

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[info]jhkimrpg
2008-03-13 06:25 pm UTC (link)
Matt, I'm sure that there are some people who think well of your judgement. There are also a number of people who think well of Madeline's judgement, myself among them.

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[info]vvvexation
2008-03-13 09:32 pm UTC (link)
Are you being deliberately obtuse here? I mean, here's someone suggesting how you could get more respect for your opinions by expressing them differently, not by changing them--unless you really do believe all gamers suck--and your response is "nope, I'm not changing my opinions." (Except that the way you phrase it translates equally well as "LOL butthurt." Because nothing shows good judgement like assuming anyone who thinks poorly of the way you express your ideas is really just afraid of the ideas themselves.)

If you're not genuinely missing the point here, what is it you hope to gain by ignoring Madeline's advice? Wouldn't it be nice if more people thought well of your judgement?

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[info]mattsnyder
2008-03-13 10:13 pm UTC (link)
Hello. I don't think I'm missing the point here. Anything's possible.

Let me attempt to explain one time. I'll happily accept that you and others think less of me afterward. I am really disinterested in having an argument about it.

I have a particular set of values and priorities regarding a hobby I enjoy. They are unusual among the subculture that typically enjoys this hobby.

When I talk about those things, people frequently cannot understand why I would differ so greatly, particularly when they receive so much happy, healthy enjoyment out of their hobby.

I also enjoy this activity. Occasionally, I do not enjoy some of the social issues that arise, or that simple are the "default" behavior. I find that my negative experiences in that regard tend to be greater than other people's (like, I am assuming, you and Medeline).

The end result is that I want to do and say things that several people cannot figure out. It does not mesh with their experience. They question me. They think I am insulting them. I understand this. It is sometimes unpleasant, but I have to deal with it.

The issue is not me trying to insult anyone. Rather, it is me deliberately challenging values "gamers" tend to hold. When self-identified gamers have their values challenged, they wonder why in the world I could possibly want to do such a thing, since they themselves find such meaning in those values. But, I do not receive the same reward they do.

Let me give a specific, relevant example: I think that people should not grant game designers special status elevated above, say, just people who play those games. I believe it causes problems. However, many people cannot understand how, for example, I could be against being a fan of, oh, Jon Tweet (or whomever; pick a gaming "celebrity"). Why would I even bother criticizing, say, people standing in line to have that celebrity sign their books? I might, but this has never come up. (And, to be honest, I have signed books. I find it makes me feel a little "dirty.")

When people who really ARE a fan of that celebrity (say, someone who really, really likes Monte Cook or someone like that) read my criticism, they feel hurt. I understand this.

We have a clash of values.

The reason I do not agree with Madeline's advice is simple. I take the position that doing so means that I have to ammend my values to Madeline's. I have no desire to do so.

Neither do I have a desire to view Madeline as an enemy. We are, in the simplest terms, two people who disagree. I wish her the best, which is why I posted what I did.

Now, yes, if I did what she says I should do, she and other people like her may "like" me more. I am comfortable if that is not going to happen.

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[info]jhkimrpg
2008-03-13 11:19 pm UTC (link)
Regarding politeness, a few comments. Using scare quotes around the word gamer is a cheap mocking, for one. Also, saying that people think of you as insulting is also disrespectful. You are insulting people. You might not have intended it, but it is an insult nonetheless.

Regarding celebrities, I have similar feelings to you about celebrities in general. That is, I have no interest in seeking out the autograph or taking a picture of a famous actor, director, or author. However, I'm clearly in the minority in this compared to most people in the world.

I am curious about your take on this. Do you feel that it's OK to be a fan of a famous author like J.K. Rowling or actor like Angelina Jolie, but not a game designer like Monte Cook? Or are you like me and just disconnected from popular culture in general on this front?

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[info]vvvexation
2008-03-14 03:53 am UTC (link)
Nope, still missing the point. Now, your comment does indicate, if I'm reading it correctly, that the point you're really concerned about is entirely separate from the things I pointed out, but that doesn't change the fact that you've still almost completely failed to address or show that you understand those things.

However, since you indicate you don't care to discuss the topic further, I assume there's no reason for me to make an effort to elaborate on this.

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(Anonymous)
2008-03-14 05:59 pm UTC (link)
Matt, you weren't just insulting nameless "Gamers" you were insulting the Gygax family as well. I was really sorry to see that Luke Gygax found your blog post and read it. If you don't feel you owe "Gamers" an apology for being a jerk -- you certainly owe one to him.

Stuart

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[info]marcochacon
2008-03-12 08:54 pm UTC (link)
It's pretty amazing to see Matt do that: it's hard to believe he would post an article he admits comes across poorly and insultingly, have people react to it as though it was insulting, and then say "look! it proves something is wrong with the hobby!"

-Marco

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